BRANDI HAWBAKER / DAVID SKLANSKY PUBIC RED PANTY PUBIC HAIR THREAD, UPDATE: David's inbred girlfriend Sue picture pg. 5

micon needs to be shot in the face. He defends gay people yet makes fun of retards, at least fags can defend themselves. Skalansky fucking a retard might be interesting to some people but to sit and dwell on it is pretty lame imo. He's had 2 radio shows about this old clown already and tries calling him on the phone like it is any of his fucking business. If the old fart likes fucking a retard, I say more power to him, I could care less what he does with his dick if he is not harming anyone. You people look more retarded than Sue for dwelling on this shit so much, and I never even read 2+2.

If the old fart likes fucking a retard, I say more power to him, I could care less what he does with his dick if he is not harming anyone.

Druff will be unbanned as soon as he completely disassociates himself from NWP and denounces their hateful tactics. All they are is a hate site masquerading under the claim of no censorship. So there is no misunderstanding in what I have said, anyone who is associated as a principle in a group (or website) that appears to have as its sole purpose that of damaging the reputation of others and from which they derive pleasure in doing this has no business being on Two Plus Two.

Again, if Druff is straight as you say, he can solve his banning from our site very quickly. Disassociate in all ways and fully from NWP.

MM

Hi bibytebit:

That's exactly the way we see it. NWP is simply a hate site where pleasure is derived by hurting people. And it is simply disgusting. There is no other description for it.

And again, if Dan Druff is really the stand up guy that some have said, he should immediately disassociate himself from NWP and make it clear that he will have no part of the hate.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi Stuey:

We have no objections if anyone goes over to NWP and participates there. That's their business, not ours. However, if they also notice how disgusting NWP is, that's also fine with us.

Howver, if we do find out that posters on the NWP site, who are also posters on 2 + 2, are participating in the hate and are just in a piling on mode as far as we are concerned, we will certinly look at it from that point of view.

Best wishes,
Mason

I spent about thirty minutes reading this thread and all of the Sklansky posts on 2+2 and I'm quite literally about to puke. This is the first time, that I can remember, where simply reading a story has made me feel like I'm on the verge of throwing up. I'm very serious. Somehow I've managed to read things far worse than this and keep my stomach in check, but this is 100% foul on so many levels... nevermind that I can't read a DS book ever again without getting the creeps. I really think I need to make myself puke... I'm sick to death about this entire story and I'm absolutely disgusted. Everything seems so impossibly out of touch with reality that it's almost like it must be one huge joke (in which case I'd still be a little sick), but the fact that this is real is devastatingly disturbing.

It took a story this overwhelmingly vile to make me want to post again. I've got to hand it to NWP... you provide a very unique service to the poker community, and you've helped change the way I see some people in the biz. Whether or not that's ultimately a good thing is irrelevant; you made me want to puke by providing this story, and that has to count for something. Sucks for me now, but later on I'll look back at this and remember NWP caused a unique reaction I have no control over, albeit not one that I particularly want to experience again, and that's an amazing thing because no other story has ever done this to me. Actually, I wish I never read it now that I think about it... I'm still sick over it and I hated to see such a prominent figure in the poker world involved, but oh well. This is so fucking creepy to me that it's not even funny.

Good post, good points good defense Micon. They are way out of fucking line and completely hypocritical on so many levels, infinite levels as you would say. Is this the next level shit you have been talking about on NWP for the last few years? Also stop telling 2 plus 2 morons how to run their site better by making bad decisions. Let them make bad decisions, bad bannings, let them run their 20 year old site into the dirt. My favorite line by mason was something like we have had this policy of positive, strategy, ect, ect, for 20 years and it will remain this way. Why do some businesses last forever and some die after a few years. ITS CALLED CHANGE! If you dont make changes whether in your life or in your business practices to keep up with the current state of affairs you fail. Let them destroy themselves over the protecting one of the owners, it will only prosper the other forums.

Neverwin

Good post, good points good defense Micon. They are way out of fucking line and completely hypocritical on so many levels, infinite levels as you would say. Is this the next level shit you have been talking about on NWP for the last few years? Also stop telling 2 plus 2 morons how to run their site better by making bad decisions. Let them make bad decisions, bad bannings, let them run their 20 year old site into the dirt. My favorite line by mason was something like we have had this policy of positive, strategy, ect, ect, for 20 years and it will remain this way. Why do some businesses last forever and some die after a few years. ITS CALLED CHANGE! If you dont make changes whether in your life or in your business practices to keep up with the current state of affairs you fail. Let them destroy themselves over the protecting one of the owners, it will only prosper the other forums.

Neverwin

wow, good post. You go to rehab or find god or something? Impressed that you cleaned your life up enough to type coherently at least

Dear Mason,

It feels very surreal writing a letter like this to you. Just six years ago, I was a big admirer of yours and David's, having read "Hold 'Em for Advanced Players" and hoping to one day become an accomplished limit hold 'em player. At the time, I never could have imagined Mr. Sklansky threatening to "pay gorgeous actors" to seduce my girlfriend, nor would I have thought you would label me a hate-monger. However, through the odd twists and turns of life, this is where 2008 has brought us.

Let me start out by saying that, in one way, I understand where you're coming from. Two Plus Two publishing is a thriving publishing business -- not just a poker forum -- and surely the health of the business takes priority over the fairness of the forum. I can respect that. You have been put in a tough position lately. The David Sklansky/Brandi Hawbaker/Sue situation has boiled over to the point of becoming a major distraction, and the circus surrounding it threatens to make a mockery of your well-respected company. It has also raised doubts in some people's minds regarding the morality of your most prolific author. With David unable to calm the situation himself, but rather appearing to be throwing oil on the rapidly-spreading fire, you had to step in and restore order. That is totally understandable, and I do not question you for attempting to "clean up" 2+2. In fact, I must admit I have been surprised over the past few years how much your NVG and BBV4LIFE forums have started to resemble our own NWP forum.

However, I feel you have made a few grave errors in your handling of this situation.

First, you need to realize who is and isn't really at fault. I would completely understand if you decided to ban anyone who attempted to embarrass David Sklansky or violate the privacy of his personal life. After all, he is an important part of Two Plus Two Publishing, and you need to protect him, as both a business commodity and a friend. Had David kept his personal business off of the forums, and had NWP dug up the "Inbred Sue" story and broke it to the world, I would fully understand your retaliatory banning of anyone associated with our site. After all, such an act would be a malicious attempt to smear Mr. Sklansky's name, regardless of whether or not the allegations were true. However, that is not what happened here. There are two and only two people at fault for the current amount of hoopla surrounding David's personal life. Those people are Brandi Hawbaker and David Sklansky himself. Remember, it was Brandi who blackmailed David regarding posting secret details of his personal life and relationship with Sue. And it was David who, once again, seemed content sharing private, detailed information about Sue and his follies with Brandi. David was the one who posted that Sue was inbred. David was the one who revealed that she can't distinguish left from right, and that after 22+ years on this earth, she still does not realize she has a physical deformity. David was the one who revealed that she was "attracted to Brandi", thus lending credence to Brandi's claims that David attempted to get them together. While David may have had his hand forced by Brandi to explain his situation with Sue, he gave everyone FAR too much detail. In fact, his highly detailed post on the matter fueled everyone's interest far more than had he quickly explained it with simply a sentence or two.

Where is NWP's fault in all of this? Nowhere. We did not uncover any new information. We did not violate anyone's privacy. We did not reveal anything that David himself didn't already reveal. While Sue's pictures were first posted on NWP, they came from Sue's Myspace. This was very easy to find, as she was one of David's top Myspace friends on his public profile. All of the information revealed on NWP could have been easily found by anyone who wanted to take a few minutes to look into the matter.

Second, you have mislabeled NWP as a "hate site". This is completely untrue. If you browse our site, you will see no statements from NWP staff -- whether official or unofficial -- condoning any form of hatred or bigotry. As we have stated many times, NWP is a free-speech site. People are welcome to show up and express their opinions, even if such opinions are offensive, hateful, or bigoted. That is part of operating a free-speech site. You need to allow messages that you may not personally agree with or condone. For example, if someone were to start a thread on NWP entitled, "I hate ******s and ****", we would let it stand because NWP is about letting people express any opinion that they want. At the same time, however, we would not condone or agree with such a thread, and in fact would very likely speak out against the one who posted it.

Perhaps you refer to us as a "hate site", however, not as a site that promotes hatred such as racism or homophobia, but rather a site that promotes hatred on specific individuals. Perhaps you feel that we are getting some sick pleasure out of posting Sue's pictures, and you believe that our intention is to hurt Sue and David for no apparent reason. This is all completely false. NWP reports on poker gossip. We try very hard to make sure that we report on true gossip, as false accusations against someone can be extremely harmful. In this case, we were simply reporting upon something that David posted himself on your own site. As mentioned earlier, the pictures were quite easy to find with all of the information that David revealed. Even our posting of David's letters to Brandi did not appear to be violating his privacy, as David continued sending several additional letters AFTER he became aware that every one of them was being forwarded to NWP by Brandi. Furthermore, we were never contacted by David to remove those letters at any point. Contrary to what you might believe, we do not hate David, and we do not have a desire to see him suffer. Furthermore, we believe that Sue is a victim in this entire mess, and I have personally stated several times that I take offense to people mocking her disability. I believe that Sue is probably a sweet girl who deserves to be left alone. However, the circus created by Brandi and David is preventing that from happening at the moment.

Finally, I believe you are making a serious mistake in attempting to solve the problem by simply covering it up. You have banned a staggering number of 2+2 posters, and most are not guilty of anything. I have never broken a 2+2 rule. I did not even participate in posting any of the David/Brandi/Sue stuff on NWP. I have spoken up on David and Sue's behalf on more than one occasion since this whole mess has started. My past contirbutions on 2+2 have been substantial, and as you can see by the majority of comments about my banning, most regulars on your site enjoyed my posts and feel that the site will be worse without me. It seems that you don't believe I am going to be a danger to the new, "cleaner" 2+2. I'm sure you believe that, if you were to lay down ground rules regarding what can and can't be posted on your site, I would follow them. So why was I banned? I've done nothing wrong, I am not a threat to the continued smooth operation of the site, and I have not hurt anyone. Are you really going to start banning people for being ASSOCIATED with people you're angry at?

Mason, obviously you have realized by now that David was out of control. That's why you have directed him not to post for awhile, and further demanded that he restrict future postings to innocuous and non-controversial matters, such as poker strategy. You must realize that this whole mess was his creation, and that punishing others for commenting on it -- something that was A-OK on 2+2 up until a few days ago, is not the right answer.

If you want to set new ground rules for your site, that's fine. Set them, let everyone know what they are, and ban those who don't comply. However, you changed the rules on the fly, and you banned everyone retroactively who involved themselves in a topic that you didn't want to see discussed. That by itself is bad enough, but when the topic itself was encouraged (and started) by one of your site's principals, this screams hypocrisy in the worst way.

I would like to ask you to reverse the recent wave of bannings, even if you want to keep the rules in place to where the Sklansky/Brandi/Sue issue can't be discussed on 2+2. Obviously Brandi herself deserves to be banned, and I doubt you will have many that could put a coherent argument together otherwise. However, the NWP-related bannings are a case of simply killing the messenger. If you don't want us reporting on David's personal exploits in the future, it would be best to simply make sure he doesn't post about them anymore.

Please consider everything I've said. I would appreciate a response a bit more detailed than, "Dan Druff needs to resign from NWP if he wants to come back." Obviously that is an unreasonable demand, essentially equivalent to someone demanding David Sklansky resign from Two Plus Two Publishing.

Sincerely,

Todd "Dan Druff" Witteles

Never Win Poker is simply full of hate, and your association with it is shameful. If you're the quality person you claim to be, you will quickly leave that organization or begin the process of cleaning it up.

David became upset and concerned over the blackmail and possible extortion. In response, he posted things on Two Plus Two that are not accurate. While David is certainly eccentric, his life is normal by conventional standards, and is certainly not some sort of sexual monster; and Sue is a fine, intelligent person despite her visual handicaps. But you already knew this, and have known it for a long time. In addition, Two Plus Two will be releasing clarification discussing all of this in the near future.

Finally, and this is for everyone, the only legitimate accounts banned from our site related to this issue are Druff and Micon. But again, when Druff disassociates himself from the hate, or begins the process to clean it up, he can be reinstated here.

MM

Sklansky you fucking nerd. Why don't you try and hire some hot actresses to seduce me motherfucker.