Mistakes NL players make at limit, and vice versa, Discuss

Can you kill NL games but suck at limit? Or do you have the opposite problem? Perhaps consider the fact that you might not be adjusting right. Take a look at these mistakes NL and Limit players make when playing the "other" game...



Mistakes NL players make playing limit:

1) Bluff-raising an opponent who appears to be holding top pair or better.

2) Not giving up on a bluff attempt when an opponent re-raises, but instead re-bluffing by raising again.

3) Failure to value bet. Constant fear about overcards, straight draws, and flush draws beating you, even when it's checked to you in a heads-up pot.

4) Obsession with trapping. Always slowplaying big hands until the turn or river, even multiway.

5) Folding decent/good hands too easily when raised on the flop or turn.

6) Being afraid to reraise without the nuts.



Mistakes Limit players make playing NL:

1) Overvaluing AK and other big cards.

2) Overvaluing suited connectors.

3) Refusing to fold top pair for large bets.

4) Love for hands like J9, QJ, AT, and KJ, which can play well at limit but often lead to expensive trap situations in NL.

5) Obsession with value-betting, often finding them costing more money than they make.

6) Over-defense of the blinds to pre-flop raises, especially from early position.

7) Giving too many free cards/showdowns by expecting opponent to value-bet scare card on turn or river.

8) Playing too many hands pre-flop, especially in a full ring game.

That should be included in the other section in my opinion. I know a lot of NL players who like to limp with marginal hands or call a raise because it is only one bet with the same types of hands, thinking that they would flop big and trap like in NL. I used to watch Stevesbets do this continually when he first started playing limit hold'em. We discussed it briefly at one point. I watch him get stuck about $4K (long ago) playing $80-$160 without dragging one chip. It was a limp fest until he finally smartened up and realized that wasn't necessarily the best way to play limit hold'em.

Ah, I knew I forgot something.

Yes, definitely the "Mistakes NL players make at limit" section needs to include:

7) Open limps with marginal hands pre-flop instead of raising or folding

Nice thread guys.

def agree w/3 and 6. I find a pretty good amount of MSNL regs stll don't read hands particularly well i.e. 2nd barreling in bad spots or not value betting certain hands in situations where it's an easy bet/fold




hahah I love #3, so true

#4 - I have mixed feelings on this one. If the lhe'r has a problem w/#3 then #4 def. will get them in more trouble but I find these hands to play even better in NL than lhe

Mikey, why do you like hands like J9/AT/KJ in NL? I think they suck big time.

The big problem with them is that they make good-but-not-great hands (i.e. top pair) rather often. With such hands, you can't get much money with them if you're ahead, and you can get clobbered from behind. You can also get run off of top pair post-flop rather easily against worse hands, such as draws, bluffs, and semi-bluffs.

What about 2 pair? Even in those cases, you can often find yourself 2-pair-dominated, lose to a straight, get counterfeited, etc.

I find them useless in drawing to straights, because it's hard to draw in NL against big hands, due to the lacking pot odds.

Now take a look at a hand like J9 in limit. You can afford to draw with it, you can often take a big hand by surprise by making 2 pair or a straight, you will usually get paid off with top pair against a lower pair or ace high, and most times you make a pair, it's correct to call down with it, thus eliminating the possiblity that you can be run off by draws or bluffs. You can also play a hand like this comfortably, knowing you won't be pot-committing yourself and blowing most or all of your stack with marginal holdings.

I don't necessarily play them for pair value, moreso for drawing power. I'd like to think that I don't pay off very much w/top pair when I'm behind yet i get value enough when I'm ahead, especially because I look spewy/semibluff a lot.

I also feel I float enough to make it profitable especially in NL where the avg player goes to showdown 25% vs. limit's standard 35-40% wtsd.

I don't coldcall offsuit hands by any means, suited hands make a nice difference : )

Also I was actually thinking more about 6max than full ring. As long as you're using your position well, they can be profitable imo. I like how in NL you can be as loose as you want (well hopefully not 100% ) as long as ur postflop play is solid.

Punketty @ 10/20 i think runs at like 40/25? and 20 buck spin who also plays 10/20 and 5/10 runs at 36/31 - both with very different styles.

I think "trap" hands only become trap hands when the player can't get away from them appropriately. Basically in theory you should be able to fold dominated hands at the right bet size, etc. It is just the human brain isn't typically very good at such subtleties. So it isn't the hand itself that is bad, it is how it is play it that is bad. I think this is an important distinction. Whats bad about J9 etc is when you limp/call with it, or even limp/fold. With limp/call it becomes hard to get appropriate value with it. Hands like this still make other hands besides top pair. Anyway, this is just my opinion and I could very well be wrong. Maybe they hands can't be played just fine by a world class player.

I think the biggest problem is just paying off way too much. #3, but extending it beyond top pair. Just paying off big bets with strong hands that aren't 2nd nut etc. It goes beyond top pair. I can say this from experience, having trying to learn NL a bit better myself. Before when online I'd avoided this problem by just short stacking and playing lots of tables.

I'd like to add to the above... my theory on trap hands. This only is true if you play the hand from a spot that seems +EV to begin with. Calling a raise with J9 etc is horrible unless you're playing very exploitively. I just don't buy the line that you shouldn't play J9 or whatever... There are spots you can play it, but its pretty basic/known holdem theory to avoid dominated situations when you can. I wasn't arguing against that.

2) Overvaluing suited connectors.

Really? I think I might have put this in the other column.

I didn't notice this but I think you're right.

There are several good things about suited connectors in limit that can't be said in no limit:

1) Drawing with them is cheap. Once you flop a flush or open-ended straight draw, it is usually correct to continue drawing with them regardless of how much betting and raising continues from your opponent(s).

2) Flopping just a pair can win you the hand, make you decent money, and not ever make you have to worry about needing to fold. For example, say you had 78s in a heads-up pot on a board of T74 rainbow. If your opponent has AK, he is likely paying you off the whole way (even the river) without an A or K hitting. He he tries to bluff-raise you at any point, it is usually correct for you to call him down anyway, meaning that you can usually continue betting with confidence, or at least check-call to scare cards. Unlike NL, it is hard for anyone to get you off of "just a pair of 7s" in a heads-up pot by raising, and also unlike NL, you can get paid off by ace high all the way.

3) You can still chase your 2-pair. In a heads-up pot, it is usually correct to chase your one pair -- even if it's bottom pair -- to make a second pair. You don't get such a chance in NL, as often your opponent's bet is too big (if not on the flop, usually on the turn).

Here is what I found I hated about suited connectors in NL: Let's say I flop a draw. Okay, great. Unless I'm relatively certain the board either missed my opponents, it's hard to play it aggressively (especially a flush draw), because people will see through the draw possibility and often call your raises/all-ins. So if you're not going to play draws super-aggressively, then you are stuck check-calling, which usually prices you out once the bet is big enough, and you often don't get paid much when the draw hits anyway because it's too obvious what you just made. I just don't like drawing situations where you either have to pay a fortune to draw, or where you won't get paid appropriately when you make it. That's what I feel occurs at NL.

On the flip side, I think big pairs are far better in NL than limit. People have to pay more to crack them, and they're worth a lot preflop when you can get either overpair-versus-overpair or AA/KK versus AK. On the flop, you can often get paid well if someone flops top pair to your overpair, and even when you run into 2 pair, you have a fair number of counterfeit/set outs. You can also get paid well postflop by people who won't let go of draws, and who pay too much to keep chasing you. In limit, it's hard to protect your big pairs, so you just have to pump as much money as you can into them pre-flop and then hope they stick. You are almost powerless to protect them in limit post-flop from those hitting a piece of the flop.

I've always been a limit player at heart. But I only play up 6 handed LHE. So I play NL live when I do. I suck at full ring LHE because I'm not patient enough to use the delaware system. And this is a pretty good list. The players that trap in LHE all the time are funny. Mix it up but most of the time just raise your good hands.

u don't have to play your flush draw aggressively unless the guy is a two barrel monster. A lot of the hands I play end up like this

Villain raises, I coldcall

Kxx two diamonds

villain bets, i call

turn: 2

Villain checks, I bet, Villain folds

even better if the board is KJx etc

limit players like to flat with AA OOP 200bb deep when playing nl i think
pretty big leak imo

This is a very weak opponent then.

not at all. if he folds every single time sure. As long as he balances between check/folding and check/calling decent hands it's fine. if he were two 2barrel too much liek 20 buck spin or c/c too much, he'd/she'd get value owned