You make the call!, Re-bluff edition

Sometimes the time is right to re-bluff. Is this one of them?

Situation:

You are in late position with QcTc at a live, 9-handed 100-200 limit hold 'em game.

A semi-donk limps from early position. Folds to you. You raise to isolate him. Button cold-calls, SB calls, BB calls, limper calls.

Flop:

7d-5s-5d

Checks to you. You bet. Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, limper folds.

Turn:

7s

Checks to you. You decide to bet, hoping everyone else has a hand like yours and will fold (or has some straight draw and is behind anyway, perhaps thinking they are drawing dead). You also decide that you are not betting the river if you get called by anyone (unless you improve).

Button folds. SB folds. BB is now the last man standing besides you. He is a young white kid, and does have some potential trickiness in him. He check-raises.

Obviously you are either 3-betting (and folding to a 4-bet) or folding here. Which one do you do, and why?

three betting him, because fuck that guy.

Fold.

There are too many hands he could be sitting on given his play from the blind that could have you dominated.

It is apparent to me that he has put you on a certain type of hand and believes he can win this pot, whether he is drawing or even if it is just a showdown of bluffs on a checked or 1 bet river.

What if you three bet and he simply just calls, then the river brings the Td or Qd ? Then what... donating more bets to see that his 2 diamonds got there ?

There may be some math that could argue continuing with this hand and I admit I am not a good limit player but I don't see the value in trying to salvage this pot considering how thin your hand really is.

I fold it and move on to a better situation down the line. If he bluffed you, then so be it.... it may even lead to him trying it again in a more expensive position down the line when you are holding a monster.

Druff on a flop like that why even bet the flop? when you get that many callers on a board like that? must you bet the flop every time you raise?

bet.

guy probably has an Ace with flush draw....with two pair on board he thinks he may have the best hand or can get you to lay down your overpair if he bets.

pots too big to fold just yet so bet and hope he lays down his draw/Ace

3bet him and fold to a 4. see if he reallyhas it

I chose to 3-bet this situation (and obviously fold to a 4-bet). Here's why:

First, we need to look at the player. He's a young white kid who I believe beats the game. That means he's not clueless, and he knows exactly what I'm doing when I'm isolating the limp donk. He floated from the BB to catch something, but at the same time, he also realizes that I may very well have complete air (or maybe ace high). Unlike some clueless players, he knows that my raise pre-flop in that spot does not necessarily mean a strong hand.

Next, we need to look at his flop play. The board was 755, and he check-called. Again, knowing that I could easily have nothing or ace high, and given that nobody else raised, he can figure to often have the best hand if he has a pair or better. He would have check-raised the flop (or at least led out) with any pocket pair or a 7. The only hands I could picture him slowplaying involve a 5 (trips) or a full house. So the flop call indicates a higher likelihood that he has nothing, or perhaps some sort of draw.

So now we're on the turn, and it's just down to him and me. A second 7 hits, but I am pretty sure he doesn't have a 7. He check-raises me, which means at this point:

1) He has a full house, in which case I'm not getting him off his hand.

2) He has a straight or flush draw, but no pair at the moment. I am ahead of any straight draw, as well as many flush draws. In addition, he will hate both draws if 3-bet him, because he will assume he is possibly drawing dead.

3) He has either ace high or absolute shit, and is trying to win the pot right there. Again, he will hate a 3-bet in this case.

So given the pot size at this point, I figured the chance of him folding was high enough to invest another $400 in bluffing.

I re-raised him, and he immediately tossed his hand away.

I'm not being results-oriented, though. I would have felt it was the right move even if it failed.

What the hell does being white have to do with anything.

Would you have played it any different against a toothless mulatto?

I like describing opponents, because a lot of time their age, gender, and race does have an influence on how they would typically play hands.

I could be politically correct and pretend that players don't often fit stereotypes in their styles, but that would be a lie.

In this case, a young, white kid who seems good is usually an aggressive "thinking" player who will run bluffs when he thinks they can work, but typically won't just shoot off randomly. While this is not a certainty, it definitely factors into my decision-making.

If the same play was made by a 55-year-old white woman, I would not attempt the re-bluff.

do all of these potential hands u put him on run through your head as you are making this play?

Yes. And I have to do it quickly or he will know that I am over-thinking it and is less likely to lay down.

Not to belie the complexity of the actual thought process needed in this situation....... but this particular situation is fairly algorithmic in terms of board texture..... so the time it took an expert limit hold em player like Druff to think through all of his options in this situation was going to be instantaneous unless he wanted it to seem like it was taking him longer.

But as he mentioned in this case, and hes absolutely correct, this play has to be made quickly...... in order to lend credibility to his line.

Druff.... any thought here of just calling the turn and either betting to a check on the river or raising the river if he leads?

I mean..... your hand is fairly polarized when you re-raise the turn..... and if he took some time to think about it..... you might have gotten raised back as hes way more likely to actually have what youre representing here.

You could have a big pair of course, but there arent a whole lot of legitimate hands that you could have to re-raise in this spot.

And, as it turns out, his hand, when he raises is equally polarized which it makes a re-raise from him in this spot way more likely considering what he knows.... you know about his hand....... once he check-raises.

Its an interesting situation..... but im not sure that the proper line to take in this case isnt to flat behind him on the turn...... and bet or raise the river. It doesnt polarize your hand as much..... and makes it look like you absolutely must have a hand......

Thoughts?

I can't bet the turn because he's out of position. He is probably firing into me if I call the turn.

I could raise the river, but it would cost me an extra bet, so I didn't like that option. I also don't like betting the river if he checks to me, as his calling range becomes a lot lighter at this point.

I still see this as a fold-or-reraise situation on the turn. I am also done putting money in after that turn reraise. If he either raises me back or calls, I am not putting in another penny.

Druff I knew that wasn't the part you were looking to have a discussion about, but I'm curious too. On a board of this texture do you continuation bet 100% of the time in a 5 way pot? I'm almost always checking behind here, hoping the button checks and I can peel for free. I mean I understand trying to isolate, but you got called in 3 additional spots on top of the limp.

The flop is awfully dry and it makes it next to impossible for him to ever win the hand unimproved if he doesnt fire at the flop......

His hand isnt hard to get away from if someone plays back at him, but hes basically giving up if he checks and the board is dry enough that hes gonna at least thin the field a little and then he can re-evaluate on the turn.

My take anyway.

I understand and appreciate all of that..... i just think your raise isnt EVER gonna get an insta-muck from someone whos actually thinking on the level that youre attributing to this kid. It just doesnt look right...... and rightfully so.

Realistically, whats your re-raise range on the turn v. a BB caller?

How can you say it doesn't look right? I isolated a limpdonk, and this kid knows I could easily have a 7.

I also am hardly ever seen getting out of line on the turn in spots like this.

I've pulled similar moves before in similar spots with a good deal of success. I don't do it often, but when I do, I like to make it in spots like this, where I think there's a good chance that the other guy has nothing.

cant help myself

#3 is obvously because of #2 and it works well for you. You're aware of your image.... and play well enough to take advantage of it.

No one is arguing with the depth of thought here. Its why youre a winner.

But we very much disagree regarding #1......

I understand the dynamic. I get that your raising range is literally as wide here as it will ever be and rightfully so.

That all being said, youre going to have to show me a '7' in this spot.

Ill say it again..... your re-raise on the turn COMPLETELY polarizes your hand against anyone who's thinking at all....... and im gonna call you down very light here if i have any show down value at all....... or re-raise you with a hand that i cant show down and force you to put in one more bet......

which youve already said you wouldnt do.... and again rightfully so.

I dont think my level of thought here is that complex given both the board texture and the hand dynamic.

Of course, that being said, youre not playing against nine Lindens and i get that, but im just offering another perspective. If it helps you great. If it doesnt..... discard it.......

Its not often that i can offer a varying viewpoint that i think is valid related to a hold em that you post. I have one here..... so i figured id post it.

No worries either way. Ive offered an alternative way to play it that doesnt polarize your hand as much against very good players..... and youve rejected that play based on a couple of factors that i happen to agree with......

So perhaps this is simply player dependent and im giving too much credit to the level of opponent.

That being said, ill simply offer again that if I.... or someone similarly complex was in the BB, you might want to consider the things im mentioning.