YOU make the call, AA flat-call post-flop edition

Below is a real hand I played at Bellagio's 10-20 NL a few days ago. I know a lot of you have gotten on me for flat-calling a raise with AA pre-flop. Your reasons for not doing so are sound, and I said I wouldn't do it again. However, for whatever reason, I did it again, and I got myself into this mess...

I'm new to the 10-20 NL, and sit with around $1700. The standard buyin is $2000, but I just came from another game and didn't bother to buy extra chips. I fold the BB, but make a flush from the SB and slightly more than double-up against a flopped straight. I now have about $3600. Three hands later, I am dealt aces (late position, obv). The table is 9-handed.

The guy to my direct right opens for $60 (3x the big blind). I find AA and flat call. To my dismay, the button calls, as does the SB and BB.

Flop:

K99 rainbow

Obviously you can already see the problem here. Pot size is $300.

Checks to me. In my concern for what I'm going to do if I run into a lot of action, I forget that the initial raise is $60, thinking for a second that the raise was $100. Therefore, I believe that the pot is $500 instead of $300. I then put out a bet of $400, which is obviously an overbet.

The button, who is next to act, makes it $1000. Everyone else folds. It's back to me. I have $3500 behind.

I think for a bit what I'm likely up against. The board is not draw-heavy at all, meaning I'm likely up against a bluff, a king, a 9, or perhaps QJ/QT trying to semi-bluff. Part of me wants to re-raise, but that will pot-commit me all-in, and might scare out a hand with a king that's drawing very thin. It also will scare out the bluff. I decide instead to look unhappy, hesitate, and just call. I think he is probably firing the turn, regardless of what I do, and I'm not all that scared of the consequences of a free card.

Turn is an offsuit 5, making the board completely rainbow. I check.

The guy immediately says, "I'm all in."

His stack is huge. At Bellagio, you can buy in for whatever you want at 10-20, and this guy appears to have done so, holding a few 5k chips.

My stack has about $2500 remaining. Current pot size is $2300 (not counting his turn bet).

What should I do?

I have no read on him as a player, nor does he have one on me. I'm very new to the table, and I rarely play that game.

Would like to hear comments about both my flop play and what you feel I should have done on the turn.

Please don't berate me about the flatting of AA, as that's another discussion for another time. Also please ignore the $400 flop overbet, as that was a result of temporarily brain-farting the pre-flop raise amount.

Is throwing up an option?

ugg, i actually typed out a response then misclicked back.

basically now u've fucked up so badly don't compound a mistake and call off, he's likely not doing this with a queen. Has a ton of 9's in his range and rest of his hands still have decent equity against you.

fold.
rack chips.
sit back at lhe.

Assuming you mean King.. and i'm pretty sure AK is the only hand you beat at this point druff.

This really looks like trips to me- a small raise on the flop (only marginally more than double your bet) with players still to act behind- once you call his flop bet he almost certainly puts you on Kx and probably decides that he has got you hooked and is just trying to get you to commit all your chips there and then.

I think your flop overbet has actually confused you - only you could confirm this but i suspect you are thinking that because you overbet the pot your opponent doesnt put you on a monster and as such there is some chance he is trying ot push you off your hand with a weak holding himself. think that made sense.

Since it was raised to 60 preflop, 9/x is quite possible. This seems to be an extremely poor spot to put the money in. Fold.

blah i thought it was Q99 which would give the villians semi-bluffing range a lot more equity.

honestly todd, I think you're up against a bluff/semi here very very rarely. It's a 5 way pot, the blinds and the PFR check to you and you overbet, i don't see the button often making this play with QJ/QT with 3 people to act behind him. It would also be foolish to raise any sort of king here, absolutely no value in doing so but I don't know how retarded live players are so hell it could be possible. If this hand got to showdown and he doesn't have some sort of 9 I would be very surprised.

check fold the flop, rack up and get back to limit pokers.

Insightful.

Insta call.


Dead serious.


Random Thoughts....

1) If I sit at a table where there is one ginormous stack compared to rest of the table, immediately ask somebody if he has been winning or just bought in heavy. Bully or Sniper.... could be both but normally it is more one than the other.

2) Who cares how many 5k chips he is fondling, it's only one more than you have to worry about.... you just sat down with 1700, minutes later you are looking at the prospect of:

- stacking 7300 or
- reloading if you are wrong, down the 1700 you carried to the table.

If you are confident in your play (you are), this 1700 is nothing to make up in a 10-20 NL game (or the big limit games you are a winner in).

3) Your "over-bet" is the key here, IMO... and I think it actually bought you more info than you realize. If he already has you nailed on the flop, why would he risk chasing you off by reraising your "over-bet" ?? Yeah yeah I know there is a chance he is leveling here hoping that's how you are looking at it but 9 times out of 10 people are too smart for their own good...

4) There is only one hand (quads) you are 100% dead against before the river.... the rest you can actually still draw out on.


I call.

If I am wrong, I say "NH" with a smile and reload, hunker down for the evening and get my gold back.

If I am right, I stack the 7300 and proceed to terrorize this table the rest of the night.

Sounds like Reward > Risk on this one.



I am a poker player with some "gamble" in him, not an accountant.... so my perspective is obv skewed here (i.e. not a good limit player).

Here is how I approached this one on the turn...

First off, recall that I put on the "frustrated/nervous call" act on the flop. Now, mind you, I was somewhat nervous that I was up against a 9, but I was putting on the act on the flop like I had a hand that I REALLY didn't like (such as KT) but couldn't let go. I thought I did so pretty convincingly, especially since I was new to the game and I believe I was a stranger to all or most of the players there.

So I broke it down what this guy cold-called with. He called 60 on the button to a middle-late position raise and a late-position cold-call. A 9 is very possibly in his range there. A king is just as possible, if not more possible.

But then I thought about the flop raise. Remember, he's trying to put ME on a hand, as well. He can likely eliminate AK, as I just flatted a middle-late position raise, instead of re-raising. He probably never saw AA coming. He probably put me on KQ or worse, with somewhat of a chance of me having a 9.

Therefore, if he has KQ himself, he is probably quite confident with his hand, as he figures he beats or ties any hand I'm holding if I don't have a 9.

The raise on the flop is what gave me enough reason to doubt he was holding a 9. I bet 400 (an overbet), which would be unlikely for a player who flopped trips to do. So he probably figured that I don't have a 9 myself. He came back over the top with 2 1/2 times that -- $1000. I still felt that it was too likely for me to fold to that raise, and that he probably wouldn't want that if he's holding a 9. Keep in mind that, with 3 people left to act behind him, he's also forcing them out by that raise. If he's holding a 9, he's more tempted not to make everyone fold, especially given the chance that people BEHIND him also could be holding a king, and that raise would probably price them out. I was just getting the feeling that he was playing it too fast if he flopped trips. Though raising to $1000 isn't beyond the realm of possibility if he's holding a 9 -- I've seen such a thing done countless times before -- I put it more likely that he had a king.

Let's go back to the flop raise. When he raised me, I knew that if I called the flop raise, I was going with it to the end. Otherwise it makes no sense to call $600 more and fold the turn, since only 2 cards in the deck will help me. I have to decide in that spot whether I think I'm ahead or behind. I put it more likely (though far from certain) that I was ahead. My goal at that point was to represent a weaker hand than AA, so I could double up if I was right. There was also no risk of ruin here. I wasn't in a tournament, and losing my $3600 stack wouldn't break me or have a serious effect on my bankroll. It came down simply to whether I thought it was more likely he was holding a king or a 9. If I put him on a king -- even slightly -- it was worth going all the way, provided I was mostly convinced that he'd put all of his chips in with a king, which I was. I just had to make it look like I didn't WANT to put in all of my chips.

I checked the turn, and he instantly went all-in. Again, I thought this was more of a reason to believe he wasn't holding a 9, since the insta-all-in projects too much strength, and he probably doesn't want to be scaring me so much if he is holding a nearly unbeatable hand.

I didn't snap call. I figured that, despite already deciding to commit my chips once I called the flop (unless a king hit the turn, which it didn't), it was still worth re-evaluating the situation to make sure I was comfortbale with my decision. Here's what I came up with on the turn:

1) I still felt he was more likely to be holding a king, based upon his behavior on both the flop and turn.

2) I thought I did a good job on the flop Hollywooding the "frustrated/reluctant call", thus telegraphing to him that I was not strong. The overbet also probably made him think that.

3) I had $2500 left in my stack, and calling the all-in and winning the hand would bring me $4800, nearly a triple-up. So my implied odds were pretty damn good, even if I was less than 50% convinced that he didn't have me beat. Now, you could argue that I built those implied odds by calling his raise on the flop, but regardless, I'm deciding for the turn at this point, and if I believe there's a fair chance he's behind, I am making the right move by calling the $2500.

4) The player in question was an Asian guy in his 20s. This actually makes a difference. A white guy in his 50s would be far more likely to have me beat here. Anyone who has played live knows what I'm talking about. (Sorry I didn't mention this in the initial post.)

5) It was clear that, whether or not he was winning, he sat with a huge stack. This was due to the fact that he held several 5k chips, which you usually don't have if you sat with a small/medium stack and ran it up. While he could have colored up, it was far more likely that he bought in with a big stack to bully people. Again, this lowers the chance that he has me down to 2 outs.

6) My stack size pretty much forced him to shove if he was going to bet the turn. With the pot $2300 coming into the turn and me having $2500 left, his options were quite limited once I checked to him. If he bets anything reasonable, and I re-raise, he's pot-committed anyway. Therefore, his options are pretty much either go all-in or check behind. If I was a lot deeper, he could make a bet without going all-in and be able to fold to a re-raise, which would add another dimension. Therefore, it's an easier call for me given my stack size, from both a risk and a strategy perspective.

So I decided to call.

Since this wasn't a tournament, nobody had to turn their cards over yet.

The river was another blank.

He quietly said, "Uh.. I have a king."

I could have been a dick and made him turn over his hand, but instead I just flipped over my aces and he mucked.

I'm not being results-oriented here when I say that I believe I played the hand well after he raised me on the flop. A re-raise on the flop would have likely chased him out with a king, yet pot-committed me anyway if he came back over the top. Betting out the turn would very likely have the same effect. The only way to do this, in my opinion, was to call his flop raise (looking uncomfortable) and then letting him hang himself on the turn. Remember, he probably really likes his hand if he has KQ, given that he thinks I don't have AA, KK, or AK.

But I'm not completely proud of this one. This is yet another example of why it's a bad idea to flat with aces in a spot like this, and I'm going to stop doing it.

I'm actually quite surprised that so many of you strongly advocate folding here, given my stack size.

yep, pretty sure we all call off if you mention he is a 20 something asian.

nh, wp, etc.

you played bad, he played worse.
there is absolutely no value in raising a king there (guessing he didn't really have a strong king either since just just said "i have a king"). Seriously, say he has KT there himself and he makes that raise, can someone tell me a hand that overbets the flop and then calls a raise that you beat? And this is all just talking about him and Todd, not even mentioning the 3 other people left to act.
I obviously need to drop my courses for next semester and move to Vegas.

So let's go back to the flop.

Are you saying I should fold to a flop raise? That's incredibly weak. So many people will raise a king there, even if they're planning to raise and then fold to a re-raise.

The problem is, if I call the flop raise, the pot becomes big enough compared to my stack to where it's too hard to fold the turn without a stone-accurate read that he has me beat.

I think this is one of those stack-size messes where you are not short stacked, yet not deep enough to make tight laydowns in situations like this. Or at least that's how I see it.

No i'm not saying that you should fold to the flop raise. I'm saying that he should never make the flop raise/turn shove with a KJ/KT type hand for value since he's never getting called when he's ahead. I mean, I'm assuming he didn't put u on like AK KQ AA that he was turning a second best hand into a bluff...

I know that you said "not berate me on the Aces", but preflop is a crux of this problem (although it is not a TERRIBLE play).

When you flat with Aces and don't get re-raised or get it HU, you have to treat them like you limped with them. If you don't smash the flop either by favor or chance, the hand becomes the value of 27o, especially on coordinated and trip boards (and the 9 is troubling because those are in the range of hands that players would call flat for a raise in that game, like A9o-97s, especially out the blinds). You also let drawing hands in there who could pressure on you as well as being a favorite on the flop, a hand like 4h5h on a 6h7hKd board.

Aces in multiways pots in limit hold 'em rate well to win because people after the flop with call with very little. They DON'T in No Limit because of the implied odds offered to the various hands that will call preflop, especially in today's loose preflop NL Hold Em games. When you get action, it is usually action you don't want.

To be honest, I would either I'd bet less on the flop, around $150-$250, and fold to a huge re-raise* OR check behind on the flop and then flat small bets that I would find comfortable on turn and river unless I improved. I know you believe folding to a reraise on the flop is weak, but what I think is weaker is calling because it creates more decisions, and winning NL (at least I believe) is all about having comfortable, easy decisions throughout a session, not running into more.



Right, hence why re-ship or fold on the flop is the play* because you bet for value versus drawing hands and hands you beat, as well as saving bets against hands that beat you. You also limit decisions on later streets because you know you will face a huge bet from the OOP bettor on 4th 85%+ of the time and you run the risk of a random King or QJ/JT running you off the best hand. So if you think you are best and the guy has AK-KQ, just ship it in. You obv know you don't have odds to hit a 2 outer on the turn either with what the guy is betting.

*UNLESS you have a stone-cold read on your opponent who would fire huge with just one pair/is a maniac. Then play Hellmuth call ball and just walk the dog. The only way I call the flop is if I have plans to call any turn/river because I know my opponent will overplay a King or lower two pair.

Oh and:

thanks for putting up this hand...i think this is a good example of good post flop skills more than compensating for a less than perfect preflop play--many books on hold em mention that skilled players can rely on post flop skills to work themselves out of difficult situations late in the hand although those same books rarely provide examples...nh and thanks again for posting

Very unlikely he would have reraised on flop holding a 9, with people to act behind him, so your postflop play seems sound to me.

One thing I don't understand. And there is a chance I play this hand the same exact way, (well not really because the preflop raise was only to 60 but if it is up to 100 I might smooth call), is why did you put on that act? I seemed like you wanted to induce him to go all in. And I play live pretty much solely now and vs a 20 yr. old asian is almost a snap call, vs a 50 yr. old white male its a snap fold on the flop, lolz.

Well played. It's a pretty disgusting situation tho.