Super elementary LHE question

Ok so I've been playing this game for like 5 years now (LHE) and still don't really know what to do here. My local lhe game is pretty ridiculous. It is 10/20 and 15/30 with 20/40 once a week. There are some decent players but overall its a bunch of nits or limpdonks. It plays super poorly. People limp all over the place and call 2 cold easy. So usually you have 4+ going to each flop. The problem is when I try to isolate a ep limper with a marginal hand (A9, KJ, small pair, 910 suited, etc) I get called by multiple players. Should I just be tightening up my raising range and limping in with the monkeys to try to make a decent hand? How should I be playing this when my raises don't isolate anybody?

this is how I play the nits in vegas...

don't play any marginal crap in early position no matter how tempting except for any pocket pair to set mine.
tighten up your range some late as well (I'm no fan of A9) but don't limp much at all if ever; you want to get paid when you hit and raising all the time will disguise your hands and put the nits on tilt....you should hear all the shit I get from geezers playing low limit holdem..."that guy doesn't play right blah blah blah", "here he goes raising again" yada yada yada....all the while drinking like a fish and trying to look like a lagtard.

Goes back to the idea that you want those babies suited when you are in multiple handed pots. I would just limp with your marginal holding if they are not effective in knocking out players. You will need to showdown in this type of game, as it seems you will called down with bottom pair more often than in a normal game. do lots of check raising with hands that hit the flops, and cut down their odds. one thing for sure, if you can't figure out what stategy you will need to use to beat the game, then the game might be too tough for you even though it seems they are not good at first. These sleeping pills are getting me tired, so, if I made no fucking sense, sorry.

unsoliticed opinion: the rest of the table may also see the ep limper as loose and are on to what you are doing...or they may be unconscious, whatever...

so anyway as you suggested tighten up with attempts to isolate & take comfort knowing that when you raise with a strong hand behind the limper in early position you will get even more action--look forward to winning some big pots but being sucked out on every so often...yep, we are talking volatile session, but a better +ev situation than a tight game

My thoughts are to limp in with suited connectors and small pairs that play well. Raise in any position with strong hands. If it folds around open pots in LP with mid- strong hands. Limp suited connectors and small pairs in lp?

I wouldn't start open limping from late position. Might as well jack it up in position then have a good chance to win the pot without going to showdown by being the aggressor and they will always remember how your the guy who raises with 78s so when you do open from other spots with strong hands youll get action. just my 2 cents....

Maybe from the button... but if im in the cutoff or hijack I'm gonna have people along for the ride. That is almost guaranteed. You can pretty much never isolate the limper in this game. So I'm thinking I want to limp hands that play multiway.

Few points about these games:

1. Since isolating doesn't work, you should be raising more drawing hands for value. Like, if a couple people limp in, you should start raising hands like ATs, KTs, etc... You're going to have people overdrawn and outkicked when they limp so much, so this is an important play.

2. You should be overlimping all suited connectors and small pairs. In this game, I'd probably call 99 a small pair. Keep in mind, with 77-99, the worst case scenario is a 3-4 handed pot. You want to play them HU or in a 5+ way pot. So, if you're raising nines after one limp, and getting one or two calls on average, stick to limping and try to get more people in.

3. Not that it matters too much, but I'd prefer to cold-call KQs, AJs and AQs. These are pretty big hands in a loose game like this, but you want to encourage multiway pots. Since cold-calling is common in this game, it seems like a good spot for it.

I would fold A9 in EP if you know 3+ others are coming in behind you no matter what you do. I would raise KJ, QJ, QT, Q9, JT, T9 hands well before A9, because these hands more easily connect with flops, and at the same time are easy to fold if you miss, which basically means you won't be tempted to make a hero A high call with them. You either lose 2-3 bets total with them, or win 15+ bet pots. I really see no reason to raise A9 here though, because 4+ way it has no showdown value, and you can't make straights with it. In 5 way pots you really need to play either big pairs or hands that can make 2pair+. It's very rare you'll flop an ace here AND have it hold up as one pair with that many people drawing.

If you are POSITIVE there will be no isolating behind you I would even limp small pairs upfront, because you limping will cause more multiway action behind you. Then if you flop a set with say 44 you'll profit huge off all the tards that can't fold top or 2nd pair the rest of the hand. If you're in a game where you limp 44 in EP, but you are pretty sure by time it comes back around to you it's going to be 2-3 bets more then you just have to fold. I made a lot of money in the early Party 15/30 games limping small pairs, which sounds a lot like the game you play in.

Id say just don't get carried away limping too much thinking that every hand has value multiway and end up playing way too many hands. I think a lot of your hand selection is going to end up depending on how aggressive they tend to play on the flop to know whether your true odds are actually there.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Stakes-Hold-Wi...t/dp/1880685329

This question comes up all the time in this forum -- basically, how to handle small and mid-stakes limit games where a lot of people see the flop?

You can probably go through this forum and find some of my posts on the matter, but the basic idea is that you have 2 choices as to what you should do:

1) Tight-aggressive style: Stick to premium hands and get aggressive with them to protect them. Stay away from trash/marginal hands in most situations.

-or-

2) "Smart" loose-aggressive style: Try to avoid limping except in super-obvious cases like when you're holding 56 suited in late position, behind 4 limpers. Otherwise, either raise or fold, and keep firing post-flop until you are shown that your opponents have something, at which point make a lot of tight laydowns. This only works if most (or all) of your opponents are straightforward, and don't pull moves on you. This style takes a lot of limit hold 'em experience to work, but it's superior to the traditional tight-aggressive style, because your opponents will incorrectly see you as a maniac, and won't notice that you make tight laydowns post-flop. They will pay you off big time, and yet will rarely raise you without a strong hand, because they play scared.

I would try style #2 in the game you describe, but if it isn't working for you, or if it doesn't feel comfortable, go with the tight-aggressive style.

I agree that A9o kinda sucks early position if you know you'll be getting 4 CCDs behind you. You're better off folding that and instead isolating with it (even if isolating 4 players) in late position. Getting to act last (i.e. buying the button) and having "control" of the table is pretty powerful in these limpdonk games.

Don't repeatedly get drawn into the limpfest or you will be at the mercy of the cards, and won't fare much better overall than the average straightforward limpdonk.

One more thing --

T9 suited and even KJo are better hands to deal with getting cold-called behind than A9o.

That's because the former two hands can often get themselves into drawing situations, where you can semi-bluff or still check-call in attempt to make your hand. With A9o, you are either hitting or missing, so there isn't anywhere to go with it if you brick the flop. It's also easier to fold KJo and T9s when you completley miss the flop, because you'll know your hand is no good and has nowhere to go. People get too tempted to hold onto their ace high, which can be painful.

Thanks Druff.

at this point, it is my opinion that seeing lots of flops in hyper loose games can yield tremendous dividends if youre running well and demolish you if you are not. or, even worse, if you are but the guy downwind of you is running hotter.

which is to say, hyper loose games perhaps cannot really be beaten without help from the deck or a truly massive roll to cover the swings.

Becoming a limp donk in a game full of limp donks isn't a solution. You are becoming exactly what you strive to beat, which makes zero sense. Druff's #2 works best in these types of games. Limp donks typically aren't check raising the turn on draws, or doing anything out of the ordinary. Fire away til played back at, then as druff said make the tight folds.

you would think it wouldnt make sense, yes. however after 6 months of sessions at the commerce 9/18 lhe game, which sounds like 100% what the op is talking about in terms of style, i have yet to see a tight player pull down anything. in fact, no one gives them action post usually because despite being donks, everyone at the table are accomplished soul readers as well.

sorry but i stand by my opinion that these games are toxic and you must either splash around and get hit in the face with the deck to be profitable or you are going to get violated at full force on the regular via soft collusion and ancient chinese empathic witchcraft.

What you are saying above would support my style #2 mentioned above.

That is, "smart loose aggressive". Take control of the action, but don't be stupid and bluff the unbluffable, and make laydowns when you know you're beat.

The best thing about these low-limit games is that most players are pretty straightforward. They bet when they have it, they check/call when they are either drawing or weak. This makes such players incredibly easy to read, while at the high limits it can be tough to figure out where you're at.

yo