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Interesting hand from WSOP, 2k NL holdem |
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Jun 28 2009, 09:26 AM
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NWP Pirahna

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From: Screwston, Texas
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2nd level 50/100 blinds I have 5200 of 6k starting stack. Avg is 7k UTG and UTG+1 have both been tight/solid, shown down top hands, not gotten out of line.
UTG makes it 250. UTG+1 calls. I'm SB with 10-10 and call. The pot is 900.
Flop comes Jd5d5. I donkbet 500 and both players call. The pot is now 2400.
Turn is an offsuit Ace. It gets checked around.
River is an offsuit 10! I lead for 1200. UTG folds(hints he had KK) and UTG+1 tanks for a minute and raises to 3500. I call. He shows 55 for quads.
Standard pretty much. This is not a disguised bad beat thread but I think I played this hand poorly to even get to the river. How would you optimally play each street? In hindsight, the flat pre is standard being out of position and my stack size. On the flop, I think a lead is slightly better than check/folding which is better than check/raising or calling. When I'm flatted twice, I plan to give up on the hand. In fact, I was 75% sure that one of my opponents held JJ or 55. On the river, I hit gin but it's still a strange spot. I can either check/raise all in(which is prob actually best) or bet with the intention of calling a raise. Bet/folding is extremely exploitable and bad but everything UTG+1 did(his image, his line, the tank/raise on the river) convinced me that he had JJ or 55. I really only beat A5, KdQd, and bluffs. I ALMOST folded.
So, how would you play my hand street by street? Should I simply be setmining, i.e. flatting pre and check/folding any non 10 flop? What would need to happen to make you fold river in this spot, or any similar cooler spot?
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Jun 28 2009, 01:20 PM
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NWP Bastard

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QUOTE(TheHangover @ Jun 28 2009, 01:26 PM)  2nd level 50/100 blinds I have 5200 of 6k starting stack. Avg is 7k UTG and UTG+1 have both been tight/solid, shown down top hands, not gotten out of line.
UTG makes it 250. UTG+1 calls. I'm SB with 10-10 and call. The pot is 900.
Flop comes Jd5d5. I donkbet 500 and both players call. The pot is now 2400.
Turn is an offsuit Ace. It gets checked around.
River is an offsuit 10! I lead for 1200. UTG folds(hints he had KK) and UTG+1 tanks for a minute and raises to 3500. I call. He shows 55 for quads.
Standard pretty much. This is not a disguised bad beat thread but I think I played this hand poorly to even get to the river. How would you optimally play each street? In hindsight, the flat pre is standard being out of position and my stack size. On the flop, I think a lead is slightly better than check/folding which is better than check/raising or calling. When I'm flatted twice, I plan to give up on the hand. In fact, I was 75% sure that one of my opponents held JJ or 55. On the river, I hit gin but it's still a strange spot. I can either check/raise all in(which is prob actually best) or bet with the intention of calling a raise. Bet/folding is extremely exploitable and bad but everything UTG+1 did(his image, his line, the tank/raise on the river) convinced me that he had JJ or 55. I really only beat A5, KdQd, and bluffs. I ALMOST folded.
So, how would you play my hand street by street? Should I simply be setmining, i.e. flatting pre and check/folding any non 10 flop? What would need to happen to make you fold river in this spot, or any similar cooler spot? Reading your post in my head I assumed he had JJ. The only way you really get away is checking flop, they both check and the quads bets on turn assuming ace hit someone. I really don't think you misplayed the hand. I would have led also because you will get a call from a lot of middle pairs there like 7;s,8's thinking you are simply continuation betting an AK plus you can pretty much rule out solid players coming in with AJ from UTG and UTG+1. You get played back at from a larger pair qq-aa and you can dump.. Once you get called twice it certainly feels like j's full, at best a higher pair and someone getting stupid with an Akd, either way you're beat at that point.. Bad luck for you on turn quads didn't bet when the ace hit because most players would bet that and you could have easily dumped. If there is an error it's the river lead because at the minimum you know one of them has at least a 5 and won't be able to resist betting it and you may have been able to just call down cheaper but that's really just nitpicking and unlikely given their position. I would have went broke also and it would have been a vg laydown if you could have gotten away.. Odds are the quads makes a big bet anyway with 3 players in pot and the result stays the same. Just bad luck river imo
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“I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.” -Hunter S. Thompson
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Jul 3 2009, 03:17 PM
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NWP Fish

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Calling is def best preflop. I don't like leading the flop in this spot at all bc the raiser and caller were utg and utg+1 and were solid tight players, showing down good hands. The chances of being ahead of both before/after (pretty much the same minus AJ and 55) the flop aren't that great, and leading out from the sb just doesn't look very strong. The way you played it, you got unlucky that UTG didn't raise the flop (if he had KK) bc I would have there for sure and probably also would have raised any hand bc the sb bet looks so weak. If UTG did raise you on the flop, the hand could have been done there. After you got to the river, that is an extremely tough fold to make. I know the feeling though, especially after the hand, that you knew you were beat and feel like you could have folded, but a lone 5 is possible even though it would be weird to check behind on the turn, also KdQd makes a lot of sense here if he felt he could get you off the hand. -Also note that your flop bet built a pot and made the river bet sizes larger, another reason I don't like the lead out.
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Jul 16 2009, 09:55 AM
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NWP Pirahna

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I like the call preflop and the donk bet is not bad but I disagree that worse hands call you. The idea has to be that you want to win the pot right there.
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So long and thanks for all the fish.
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Jul 21 2009, 08:21 AM
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NWP Pirahna

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A donk bet is fine but I think you have to have an established image of donking out there with a decent range. If they believe you are donking out with 45,56, Jx AS WELL as a flushdraw or midpair then it makes sense in a multiway raised pot since tighter (bad) players don't want to guess post flop. But if you are just pinned as some internet lagtard then you are always going to get looked up ligher and AJ/QQ/KK is never folding.
I don't think anyone is that bad to sandbag just a 5 until the river unless it was A5 but you said they were tight players so A5 isn't remotely in there range (especialy EP). KQdd is an actual possbility but don't beat yourself up about it calling too much, atleast you weren't a dipshit and shipped it in
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(RYLAND_THE BALL_SNIFFER @ Aug 6 2008, 06:04 AM) I'm fine with you guys thinking your pissing me off or something acting like this but we all know where im going to end up in poker when being serious. I am up almost 10k this summer in micro FR and 6 max 15-20 tabling and I have tons of backers but yep just keep laughing at me and i'll keep dedicating my life to improving my poker game and getting somewhere big in life.
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Jul 23 2009, 09:08 AM
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NWP Fish

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I don't see why people like the 500 donk bet on the flop?? You aren't going to get people to fold the flop, not even if they both have AK/AQ. It builds a bigger pot in a bad situation out of position.... I think the flop is better played by check-folding, or check-calling only 1 player and then re-evaluating the turn. BOTH players have shown only stong hands from UTG and UTG+1, it is more likely that you are beat than not here (which is why we only called preflop).
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Aug 26 2009, 04:31 AM
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NWP Bracelet Winner



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I agree with the SB call, though you are very likely ahead of UTG+1 pre-flop. However, if you raise, you get yourself in a tight spot post-flop (assuming no re-raise pre-flop) unless you flop a set.
The 500 donkbet sucks because it's too small. You will likely get called and give yourself little info. They are going to put you on a jack or pocket pair, not a 5, since you flatted them from the SB. I would have either made a more meaningful donkbet (like 800), or just check-called and be willing to fold to another barrel fired on the turn.
I would have check-folded to the ace, and bet out with the ten, and called the re-raise. No way you can lay that down.
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Aug 28 2009, 05:37 AM
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NWP Pirahna

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Are you losing value if you just call the re-raise, and not shoving there? QUOTE(DanDruff @ Aug 26 2009, 12:31 PM)  I agree with the SB call, though you are very likely ahead of UTG+1 pre-flop. However, if you raise, you get yourself in a tight spot post-flop (assuming no re-raise pre-flop) unless you flop a set.
The 500 donkbet sucks because it's too small. You will likely get called and give yourself little info. They are going to put you on a jack or pocket pair, not a 5, since you flatted them from the SB. I would have either made a more meaningful donkbet (like 800), or just check-called and be willing to fold to another barrel fired on the turn.
I would have check-folded to the ace, and bet out with the ten, and called the re-raise. No way you can lay that down.
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